Episode 144 – Dr. David Jockers



Hello, hello, hello everybody, what’s up? It’s me, Drew Manning, the host of this Fit2Fat2Fit Experience Podcast. Which means that I am that Fit2Fat2Fit guy that you all love and adore so much, right? *laughing* I really appreciate you guys tuning in today for Episode 144 of the Fit2Fat2Fit Experience Podcast. We are coming up on episode 150. 150 episodes is insane, crazy to me that I have kept this thing going this long and the fact that you guys are still listening! So, I have you guys to thank for all of this. So, thank you so much. A couple of quick announcements before we get into this episode. One, is I will be at KetoCon on June 15-17, which is in Austin Texas. KetoCon, at the Keto Conference, I will be a speaker there. I will also be having a booth as well. So, if you guys are in Austin Texas, June 15th through 17th, 2018, look up KetoCon, come to that conference, come say hi. Come listen to me talk a little bit and come say hi at the booth. I would love that. I would love to meet you guys in person. Also, the Fit2Fat2Fit Cruise, the 2nd annual Fit2Fat2Fit Cruise is happening in October. October 7th through the 14th. It’s a 7 day cruise. I would love for you guys to come on this cruise with me. We are going to have daily workouts together as a team, daily yoga and meditation practice. We are also going to be having meals together as a team and daily seminars. I am bringing on a guest from season one of my TV show, Fit2Fat2Fit, Seth from Florida. You might recognize him from season one of the show, with the long beard. He is going to be joining us on the cruise. He is going to be our yoga/meditation instructor. There are going to be a couple of seminars from him as well. So, you definitely don’t want to miss this. Go to Fit2Fat2FitCruise.com, for more details and more information on how to sign up. I think right now it’s only a $50 deposit. $50 down to secure your spot on the cruise. I would love to see you guys. We are going to be going to some amazing destinations and I am a huge fan of cruise’s, as long as the seas are pretty calm. *laughing* Just kidding! I’ve never gotten sea sick, but I can imagine that would be horrible if it was really bad. But, I doubt that will happen.

Ok, so today’s episode, 144, is with Dr. David Jockers. I actually met him through …. he is the one who created the thing called the Keto Edge Summit. It’s a free online summit that you can register for, where you can learn from all different Keto experts from all over the world. People like me, Dr. Dominic D’Agostino, a lot of other big names, a lot of other doctors, a lot of other influencer’s. Pretty much if you know anyone in the Keto industry, they are going to be on this Keto Edge Summit. There will be a link in the show notes for that. So Dr. David Jockers is the one who is putting this on. He is a doctor of natural medicine. He is a functional nutritionist and a corrective care chiropractor. He currently owns and operates Exodus Health Center, which is in Kennesaw Georgia, I believe that’s near Atlanta. He runs one of the hottest natural health websites on, at DrJockers.com, with over one million monthly visitors. He has also been on TV shows like Dr. Oz. On today’s podcast we talk a little bit about his story of how he became a chiropractor, how he healed his wife’s endometriosis and also how he does Keto and how he teaches Keto today to thousands of patients. A lot of interesting topics that we will cover here in this Podcast episode, so you will definitely want to stay tuned to the very end.

Drew: Alright, Dr. Jockers. Welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Dr. Jockers: Doing awesome, Drew. Really excited to be on your show. It’s one of the ones I listen to and I love the work that you are doing.

Drew: Thank you so much for joining us all the way from Atlanta Georgia, right?

Dr. Jockers: Yeah, you got it man.

Drew: Awesome. Did you grow up out there? Or where are you from originally?

Dr. Jockers: I am actually from Florida, so I grew up in northeast Florida, St. Augustine. The oldest city in America, right under Jacksonville. I came out to Atlanta to go to graduate school. I went to Life University, it is a chiropractic college out here. I just really liked it and my family actually had relocated out in this area, my parents and so I ended up staying out here.

Drew: That’s awesome. What got you into school to be a chiropractor?


Dr. Jockers: Well, you know, really it all started …. my mom was always into natural health. In fact, now she is a naturopath. Growing up she was a massage therapist and a nurse and she had her own garden and would show me all of these different herbs. She would put kale on my plate and here I am a teenager and I’m like, ugh, this tastes disgusting, right? I didn’t like it. She would say things like, ‘This is going to help you be stronger.’ I was an athlete, so she would say stuff like that and she was always talking about the benefits of eating these foods. I was like, really? If this would give me more energy, gosh anything to have more energy, to be a better baseball player, I’m all for it. So, I started eating it and I would ask her what else should I eat? So, I always had this curiosity about performance and that led me to be a personal trainer. So, I actually became a personal trainer. I was just so curious with physiology, as I started studying this in my undergrad, I started studying exercise science and was just so fascinated by it that I decided to take the next step. If you asked me growing up if I wanted to be a doctor, I would have said no way. There was no way. But it was kind of this fascination, as I learned more, I wanted to learn more and more and more. Chiropractic kind of blends this perfect …. it has the philosophy which is, the body was created to heal itself and regenerate itself. To me, that just resonated when I heard that and that it really works with the physical structures. Of course, with nutrition we are able to work with kind of the chemical composition. I know like the great work you do and many others, really working with the mindset and emotions. We can blend all of those things, it’s like the perfect match for helping people overcome chronic health issues and really optimizing people’s health. So, I saw the potential in that and that is what led me down this road.

Drew: Yeah, it’s really cool. Going back to your story with your mom, I think that’s a really important lesson to all the parents out there, to teach your kids why it’s important to eat these foods. Because it is so easy just to say, look, just eat it because I told you to. I don’t want to have to explain it. Just eat it because I said.  But, I have learned with my kids, if I teach them the why behind why it’s important to eat these types of foods, versus those types of foods, at least they understand the importance of it. Maybe it will spark their interest into wanting to learn more, like with you, it peaked your interest into going down that road.

Dr. Jockers: Oh yeah.

Drew: I think a lot of parents sometimes don’t explain why. They just tell kids to do it just because they said so. I think that’s really important for kids. Now, here is the thing, do you have kids, by the way?

Dr. Jockers: Oh yeah. I’ve got two twin two year olds and my wife is pregnant. It’s May when we are recording this and she is due May 29th with our little girl. So, we are going to have three under three, Drew!

Drew: Oh wow!

Dr. Jockers: So, keep us in your prayers, my friend! *laughing*

Drew: *laughing* Yes. Wow, I thought I had it hard with two kids, but man, like three under three is going to be tough, man. So, anyways, I am just curious to know, before we get back to your story, are there any lessons that you learned from your mom that you plan on passing on to your kids as a parent? Right now, they are only two, but at the same time, what lessons do you foresee yourself carrying on to your kids?

Dr. Jockers: I think, just like what you said, cause and effect. So, my older brother, he had really bad acne. My mom would always say it’s because he eats all that chocolate and sugar. He loved Snickers bars and …. you know, like all of us do, right? Kit Kat’s, he would always break out and here I am like 10 or 11 years old and I got my first pimple. I remember my mom saying it was because of sugar, chocolate, processed chocolate. I was like, ok, this stinks. This absolutely sucks having a pimple. I was like, you know what? If it means not eating sugar, I am ok with that. *laughing*

Drew: *laughing*

Dr. Jockers: So, basically cause and effect. We are really driven by a pursuit of pleasure or a fear of pain. So, if we can teach our kids, hey if you do these things, there are consequences. These are the kind of consequences you are going to have to suffer, a level of pain because of that. At the same time, if you do these actions and steps, there are a lot of positives that come from that and a lot of rewards. We try to do that actually with our two year old twins. We are trying to get them potty trained, so we are going crazy when they get on their little potties and pee. We are just going crazy, just trying to really positively reinforce good behavior as much as possible.

Drew: Yeah, it’s interesting how we are …. *laughing* …. and it sounds bad to say this, but we are like domesticated animals in teaching like, ok this is good, this is bad and we grow up in that environment of domestication in a way, even as humans. But, it’s interesting how that works with kids, especially with eating certain types of foods or going to the bathroom. I think it’s really important to look at it that way and also seeing how we were domesticated and maybe breaking free of certain kinds of bad programming. Like what you are saying there, that’s not bad. I just think it’s really interesting, that aspect of human culture and that domestication.

Dr. Jockers: Oh yeah. And one quick thing, Drew too. When I was growing up, for some reason, I don’t even know why, I told my mom, I don’t like sweet potatoes. I just all of a sudden decided, I don’t like sweet potatoes. My mom would make sweet potatoes regularly and she would always make me a regular potato. All of a sudden, flash forward and I’m 18 and for some reason, I think I don’t like sweet potatoes and I don’t eat them. Maybe I will try one. I tried one and I thought, actually this is pretty good. I actually liked it better than white potatoes. So, it was one of those things where I had just conditioned this belief and I think I really did it because I wanted attention, like most kids. When I grew up, I was one of six kids, so it was like striving for attention. So, a lot of times kids, we just pre-decide things, based on what’s going to give us attention or make us feel special. We have got to rethink those things later on in life.

Drew: That’s really interesting. That’s a good analogy. Really quick, getting back to your story, how long were you a personal trainer for?

Dr. Jockers: For 3 years.

Drew: Ok.

Dr. Jockers: So, as I went through my undergrad.

Drew: Gotcha. Did you know that was kind of a temporary thing or were you kind of looking into …. did you switch gears and go into the chiropractor world at some point, or did you almost foresee yourself going into the health and fitness, like a trainer or a strength or conditioning type coach or anything like that? What was the transition there for you?

Dr. Jockers: It’s funny because at first I thought I was going to be a Phys Ed teacher. Then I started working at a YMCA in summer camp and I realized that a whole gym full of kids who are eating processed foods, they are going crazy, they are acting out. I don’t like this, it’s stressful, I don’t like this! *laughing* So, basically I decided  you know what, I always liked fitness, I always liked performance and I work out on a regular basis. I take good care of myself, I should be a trainer. I know as much as what these other guys know. So, I just went through some training and became a trainer. Actually, I was working part time in high school, I worked …. and even into my undergrad, at a grocery store. My store manager of my grocery store, he was always somebody I looked up to. He was a bodybuilder, really successful. He actually retired from the grocery store and opened his own gym, a World Gym, one of the franchises. He needed trainers and I was like, that’s me! So, I actually started before I was finished with my training, just kind of working different shifts, cleaning bathrooms or whatever he needed. Then I got my personal training certification and I became one of his top trainers there while I was going through school.

Drew: Wow. That’s awesome. After that, how did you pick the field of chiropractor?

Dr. Jockers: Yeah. So, I was training people one on one and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed seeing the results. I actually thought, you know what, I should own my own gym. I should run …. I always wanted to kind of run some sort of community wellness center. So, that was my vision at first and then somebody actually pitched the idea at me. Somebody said, you know what? You should be a chiropractor. And I had no experience with chiropractic. My dad had back issues growing up and I thought, well he is just somebody he would go to. He would go when he was in pain. I had no experience with it. So, I thought, why would I want to be a chiropractor? Why would I want to go back to school? Go through all this, I was almost finished with my undergrad and only had one year left. I’m like, why would I want to take four more years of school, just so I can crack people’s backs or whatever it is that they do? What is funny is that there was a chiropractor that worked out of my gym and he’s like …. we just started talking one day and he’s like, ‘It’s really amazing what I get to do.’ He’s sort of telling me about testimonials and things that he was seeing. I was like, wow, that’s really, really cool. So, I was at Barnes and Noble and I saw this book about chiropractic and I was like, ok. Somehow I found this book and I picked it up and started reading it. The guy talked about this holistic lifestyle. He talked about nutrition and fitness and its role in health. He talked about releasing the body from a vitalistic standpoint that …. we are greater than the sum of our parts. That really there is an inherent power within us that connects everything. To me, it just really resonated with my heart and my spirit. I was like, you know what, this makes so much sense to me, I can’t believe this. I’ve never heard this before, but it just makes sense. It resonated with me. As I looked more and more into chiropractic, I was like, I love this. Chiropractors are able to really teach a holistic lifestyle, obviously with a doctorate degree. So, I just went down that track.

Drew: That’s awesome. I know your wife, she suffered from endometriosis. Can you talk a little bit about that story of how you were able to, in a way, heal her and how you did that exactly?

Dr. Jockers: My wife, so I actually met her …. I got out of school and started my own practice and just worked hard and had built a successful clinic. I was single this whole period of time and I actually started doing …. we found each other online. She had really no experience with health and I was well known in the area, but I was immediately very attracted to her. She’s beautiful and she just lights up a room when she goes in. So, here she is, she is dating one of the more well known health influencers in the area. We start talking about health and nutrition and I actually challenged her to go 30 days gluten free, that was kind of the first challenge I gave to her. She would suffer with such extraordinary pain, that she would literally spend probably about a day and a half in a hot tub every single month. Whenever she would have a cycle, she would deal with that. Earlier in her life she had gotten the diagnosis and she had a surgery, as well, to remove some scar tissue. Typically with endometriosis, what scientists are actually finding out, most people with endometriosis have auto immunity. They are developing antibodies to their ovaries. So the body is actually attacking and breaking down ovaries. Typically, and obviously, they have a lot of trouble getting pregnant, because their body is attacking their ovaries. Anyways, I said, you know what? Just try this. One of the big things for me was, I just felt like I wasn’t going to preach at her or kind of hold myself like, holier than thou, here I am, kind of thing. That just wasn’t going to work. She wasn’t going to take it. She wouldn’t have stuck with me if I had done that. *laughing* She was curious and that was the cool thing. She was like, why do you do this? Why do you do that? I said, this is why, because of the inflammation, and I started talking to her about it. I told her about how endometriosis is kind of the mechanism. I said, hey, why don’t you try 30 days gluten free, and I gave her some different options as far as different things she could do. I showed her some recipes and so she did that. She was like, wow, you know I really notice a difference. Now, she still had the endometriosis, but she was like, I really actually feel better. I feel more mentally clear. I just feel a lot better and I am going to continue with this. When we would go to family events and things like that, she would not follow a gluten free diet. She would go back to eating different foods. But on her own, on a regular day to day basis, she was eating a healthier diet. We moved quick in our relationship, we were both 32 at the time we met. We had dating experience and we knew what we were looking for, so within four months, I proposed. Then, I think it was like four or five months later, we got married. Basically, she continued to follow this plan and every month or so, she would do something else. I actually got her a bunch of supplements. She was a nanny and like a tutor, so she wasn’t really making a whole lot of money, so I actually also helped her financially to get organic foods, things like that to help her. She was able to do it on a budget, but it really helped just provide for her as far as advanced strategies, kind of like if she was a patient of mine. Through the process, she saw significant changes in the intensity of her periods. We got married March 7, 2015 and again, she was told she would have a lot of trouble getting pregnant. She had actually told me, she always wanted to have a family. She told me we will probably have to adopt. She was already telling me things like this. I was like, that’s fine. That’s totally fine with me. So, March 7th is when we got married, we conceived with our twins in mid April.

Drew: Wow. *laughing*

Dr. Jockers: We had a healthy pregnancy and we had our boys December 31st, 2015. We got married, conceived and had the boys. And then the real test was not only the fact that she got pregnant, but then also, after she started having her cycle again, this is what I was curious about. Would she still have this massive intensity, because even up to right before she got pregnant, she was still in a lot of pain when she would have her cycles. Not nearly as bad, but still really painful. I wondered what was going to happen when she had her cycles again. After six months, she stated her cycles again and she was like, wow, I feel like a tiny little cramp, but not much. Is this normal? Is this what normal feels like? I said, yeah, I think that’s the case. She hasn’t had a real painful menstrual period ever since and we conceived again. Both times, unintentionally. We have never really intentionally tried to get pregnant. It’s just part of like, you know? Especially when you’ve got a really hot, beautiful wife. *laughing*

Drew: Right. *laughing*

Dr. Jockers: Anyways, that’s really that story.

Drew: Yeah, that’s interesting. Finding that balance of being who you are as a chiropractor, of like knowing how to fix people. But then the person that you love, like you don’t want to cross that line of, ok, I’m your coach now, listen to me. But it’s also like, ok, but I don’t want to listen to you today, so ….  *laughing* It must have been hard, finding that balance of …. but it sounds like you guys did just fine and you are doing fine.

Dr. Jockers: Exactly. It was a lot of encouragement. It wasn’t like, you need to do this. It was like, you do whatever you feel like you want to do. That actually …. that actually helped to seduce her to want to do this, because she was like, he’s not pushing me to do any of this. It was more like, hey, this is how I live. And I’m confident in how I live, just like you are, Drew. It’s like, hey, I know it will work! So, this is how I live, this is what I do, these are the choices I make. You decide what you want to do. I’m happy. I’m going to care about you and love you no matter what you choose. It’s just this is who I am and what I do.

Drew: Yeah. That’s a very good point. That’s great. That’s a great way to approach it. How did you eventually get into the Keto world? How did that come about? Were you already Keto before this or at what point did you convert to “Ketoism”? I just made that up! *laughing*

Dr. Jockers: Exactly. Well, basically for me, when I was going through my undergrad, towards the end, as a personal trainer I was eating six meals a day, protein bars and all that kind of stuff. You know, processed whey protein, all day long. I would eat a protein shake at night before I went to bed. I would wake up in the morning and have another protein shake. You know, these are all the things I thought I had to do. You probably were there too. I ended up developing irritable bowel syndrome and lost a bunch of weight. This was back in 2004 and 2005. I found the Makers Diet by a guy who is now my friend, Jordan Rubin. I started following something similar. I was also reading a lot of Dr. Mercola back in those days and he was talking about real low carb. I started doing that, but nobody was talking about Ketogenic. I actually started doing intermittent fasting just because I felt better. Like, I felt significantly better when I would …. I really ate my meals in like a four hour eating window, which back then nobody was talking about this. I felt better when I hydrated a lot in the morning and I would eat from like 3 to 7 or 8, something like that. I just noticed I felt a lot better and this was when I was in college. I realized that and I was able to overcome the irritable bowel and get my health back. When I started my clinic, I was 27 years old with student loans. I couldn’t get a business loan because the economy had gone down. So, I actually opened it on credit cards. I was able to get all these different loans, like a home refinance loan. I didn’t even own a home. Just somehow God provided. I had all of this debt, but I opened my clinic and I actually lived in my clinic and I showered across the street at a 24 hour gym. *laughing* I did this for two years, Drew.

Drew: Wow.

Dr. Jockers: I was single, I was like 27. I was just going to work all the time anyways, so that is what I did. I just really hustled. I was working 70-80 hours a week, meeting people all over the community and just working all day long. What would happen is, I was eating a lot healthier. I was a doctor and I was teaching nutrition, but at the same time, I would eat healthy during the day. Because I was working so much, my stress hormones were blasted and I would feel so depleted by the time I was finished at 9 or 8 at night. Many times I would do presentations until late into the evening. I would just binge. For me, what I would actually binge on, this is funny, but it was like Ezekiel bread with coconut oil and frozen blueberries. I only had this little cooler in my office. *laughing* So, I actually had one of my employees that would make me dinner from time to time, like cook stuff. I only had this certain cooler, I thought Ezekiel bread is healthy and I am craving these carbs. I just didn’t know about Keto and real low carb, so I was trying to go with clean foods. All of a sudden I actually developed skin cancer on the corner top of my nose. I grew up in Florida. I was on the beach. I used to bodyboard and surf and have been sunburned way more than someone should. Skin cancer is what actually killed my grandfather, so it’s in my family. I saw this big red nodule on my nose and I’m like, that’s probably just acne. Although it looked different. I just thought, oh, it’s going to go away on its own. It’s going to go away on its own. And 3, 4, 5 months go by, it’s getting bigger, it’s asymmetrical, it’s red and spotted, all the things I learned in school to say, hey, this is not normal. I just all of a sudden realized, this could kill me. I would tell my patients in my new patient orientation, I would explain my story about my grandfather and how he developed skin cancer. So, I was telling this story all the time. Finally, I was like, you know what? This is exactly what killed my grandfather. I’m like, I am looking at my life right here in front of me and I just started thinking about my life and taking inventory of it. I realized, number one, I’m like way more stressed out. My driving thought was a fear of failure. I was so scared I was going to fail, that I wasn’t going to be able to pay my bills or make my overhead, pay my employees, all these kinds of things. I had patients that were very needy and needed help and coaching, I’m going to fail them. I just was always scared that I was going to let people down, that I was going to fail. That was my driving thought every single day. When your driven by fear, you can’t heal. It’s impossible to heal when you are driven by fear. The bible talks about fear and love, right where there is fear, there is no love. There is no healing, this power of self healing is going to be restricted and inhibited. I realized I need to do a lot of mental, emotional and spiritual work. Number one, I need to clear this out, this fear. Number two, and really it came from my parents went bankrupt growing up, so I always had this massive fear of like, losing it all. I had to do a lot of work on that. I looked at my nutrition and I was realizing, you know what, I am eating way more carbs than I should. I know I do better on lower carb, still at that point I didn’t know the word “Keto”, “Ketogenic”, obviously I had learned about ketoacidosis, all doctors do. But I hadn’t learned the word Keto or Ketogenic diet, so I started looking at and studying different things. What is the best nutrition for cancer, this kind of thing? As I was studying, I came across Dr. Mercola doing an interview with Dr. Thomas Seyfried on the metabolic theory of cancer. I picked up his book and I read that and was blown away. I thought this is amazing, this was back in 2011. I started applying it on myself, and of course there were other areas, I was showering in chlorinated water. I had enough money, so I bought a house real close to my clinic and got a shower filter and cleared out all these different toxins that were in my life. I was actually sleeping right under the power panel for my suite. Back when I didn’t have digital x-ray, I had chemical x-ray, so it was like the chemical processor was in the bathroom right next to where my bed was in my office. I thought, oh my gosh! I was creating an environment for cancer. *laughing*

Drew: Oh wow. *laughing* Yeah.

Dr. Jockers: I cleared out these toxins and I started studying this Ketogenic approach and I’m like, this is amazing. I started applying it and I’m like, you know what? I like these foods, I like grass fed butter. I love avocados. I like olives. I can eat a lot of these kinds of foods. I like healthy meat. I like vegetables. I’m like, this is easy. So, I started applying the keto approach and you know, along with obviously cleaning up my environment, taking specific supplements, I  was able to heal that skin cancer naturally. It took me about 4-6 months for it to fully wither away. I just had confidence it was going to heal. I felt like, you know what, I found what’s holding me back in my life and this is going to heal, it’s going to get well. I noticed my brain was better, my energy was better, my sleep quality. I noticed all these things pretty quickly were improving. The skin cancer went away and I was just like, this is amazing. I have got to get this message out to more people. I started doing cancer workshops and large seminars in my community. I attracted many different individuals with all different types of chronic health conditions. I don’t use keto with everybody, but certainly with most cancers and many other disorders. Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, people who want to lose weight, diabetes, and I have just seen tremendous results over the years. I have just been a really passionate advocate of it, I guess now for the last seven years.

Drew: Yeah, that’s awesome. So quick question, about the story and the skin cancer and switching over to keto and how it went away, you mentioned some supplementation. Can you describe specifically what those were?

Dr. Jockers: Yeah, I was doing a high dose of fish oil, purified fish oil. Also Curcumin, which is the active ingredient in Turmeric, really powerful for down regulating inflammation in the body. Let’s see, what else was I doing? Digestive enzymes, to help support my digestive system. High doses of vitamin C, to help support the immune system. Vitamin D, as well. And I was also …. I’ve always been an advocate of just getting out in the sun, obviously healthy sun exposure. A lot of people think sun is what is going to cause skin cancer, I definitely think there is a link, if your getting sunburns, like I was. But, to support your vitamin D levels, it’s so important, it’s probably the most important nutrient in helping modulate your immune system, is Vitamin D. Also, Zinc, I was really zinc deficient, and a lot of people in our society are, because of stomach acid and blood sugar imbalances, so I was supplementing with zinc on a regular basis. It’s also a key for endometriosis, that was one of the key supplements I had my wife on, and for fertility in general, zinc is so key. It’s one of the most inexpensive supplements and can play such a huge role for men, for testosterone production, sperm motility. It reduces inflammation, definitely important for inflammation along the skin, like eczema, as well as skin cancer, in my case. So, I think those were some of the key basics that I was taking.

Drew: Ok, cool. I just wanted to throw that out there, because I am sure people listening might want to ask about that. Over the past seven years of doing Keto, how has your …. maybe your approach to Keto or maybe some things you have learned over the past little while …. maybe changed the way you do Keto or has it changed at all? Do you still do Keto the original way you did seven years ago? Or has it evolved for you?

Dr Jockers: It definitely has evolved. For awhile, I really wasn’t measuring, I was just going off of how I feel. Which I still do, you know kind of the food I am eating. But, I found at times I would struggle, because I was just doing too much protein. You know, growing up, especially when I was younger, and growing up, I was always underweight, Drew. My mom and parents would be like, eat more! Eat more, because I was always underweight. So, what I would do is sometimes I would eat very large pieces of meat, which I am getting too much protein when I do that and it throws me out of ketosis. Because my body is going to break that down through gluconeogenesis into glucose and it’s going to trigger insulin when I do that. So, just really dialing that in and really focusing on vegetables and fat satiety, has been key to me. And then really finding out the best cycle strategies. I do a cyclical Ketogenic diet. I’m not dogmatic about always being in ketosis, but I would say I spend about 90% of my time in nutritional ketosis, at least 0.5. I never eat breakfast, I pretty much just eat one to two meals a day. I’ve also incorporated a one day a week, over the last few years, where I do a 24 hour fast. Dinner to dinner typically or lunch to lunch, something like that on a weekly basis. I always feel so much better when I do that.

Drew: Yeah. I am a huge fan of extended fasting, as well. Have you ever played around with extended fasting? Anything above 24 hours?

Dr. Jockers: Yeah.

Drew: Ok.

Dr. Jockers: Yes, I have. I particularly listen to my body. This past year, for whatever reason, I developed two sinus infections. I could kind of feel them coming on, I just felt the pressure. My body naturally …. and I think this is one of the great things about living this sort of lifestyle, you become more intuitive to what your body is trying to tell you. So, my body just …. I wasn’t hungry. I was like, you know what? I don’t need food. I’m like, I just feel tired, I feel pressure on my head. I do not …. I’m not going to eat until this goes away. So, I did 2-3 day fast and it was like, by the end of the third day, I felt a lot better. I’m now actually starting to get a little bit hungry. *laughing* Like not starving, I could have fasted longer, but I am already 7% body fat, I don’t want to shrink too much here.

Drew: *laughing*

Dr. Jockers: I thought, I’m ready to break this fast. I will do some broth, some kimchi, stuff like that. That’s typically how I do it, is I try to listen to my body. My body says, hey, we need  to eat. Then we eat, if my body is saying, you know what, right now …. and this is kind of what animals do if they aren’t feeling well, they just shut down. They are not going to eat. You’ve got to listen to the body, you don’t constantly need calories being put in. In fact, the more that we are eating, the less energy that is available. So, we are going to divert energy from healing and repair from our immune system. So, fasting is one of the best things to help your body overcome a virus, bacterial infection, to overcome certain healing crisis. Really, really powerful for down regulating inflammation in your body and supporting healthy, balanced immune function.

Drew: Yeah, yeah. I’m the same as you, already being lean, I set up to do a 7 day fast as my goal and I could tell by day 6 and 7, it was a little bit too much for me. Where I just didn’t feel optimal, I didn’t feel great. I’m like, oh, but I told people 7 days, so I got to stick with it. But, now moving forward, I think anywhere between 3 and 4 days, are like my longest I think I would ever go, to feel optimal. But, you’ve got to listen to your body, it’s very bioindividual. I’m sure you agree with that.

Dr. Jockers: Yeah, exactly. Like, you could do it. You and I could both do a 7 day fast, and come out of it and we are fine. Obviously, we look …. we will both lose muscle mass and won’t look like at the size we want to look. But, it’s just the benefits are amazing. But, at the same time, do we necessarily need to do it? Certainly not. We can get a lot of benefits from like a 3- 5 day fast.

Drew: Yeah, I agree with that. Going back to Keto a little bit. The whole controversy of too much protein, gluconeogenesis and there are some people, certain groups that kind of say, hey, protein isn’t …. you would have to eat a lot of it. It depends on the person. Some people can eat a lot of protein, kind of like a modified atkins approach. I guess people that are just getting started with Keto, kind of get confused of like, how do I know how much protein to get? Is it only 20% or only 25%? How do I know how to get in the right amount of protein? What do you tell people about that?

Dr. Jockers: Yeah, great question. Number one obviously, it always depends on the amount of lean body mass that you have and your activity level. So, if you are training really hard or you are an athlete, you are going to need more. If your sedentary, you are going to need less. So, typically a great range to be in is about 0.8 to roughly 1.2 grams per kilogram. So, somebody that’s more active, you would want to be on that 1.2 grams per kilogram. If you are doing resistance training, things like that on a regular basis, especially if you are doing really long,  extensive resistance training workouts, maybe up to 1.6 grams per kilogram. Typically, that’s just kind of the range I use. What does that look like for me? I am 160 pounds, roughly 72-73 kilograms. So, if I am eating 1 gram of protein per kilogram of body weight, so that’s about 72 grams of protein that I will break into typically two meals. That’s typically how I do it and it seems to work great for me. I am very active. I do resistance training four days a week, I’m taking walks around my neighborhood with my boys. So, I’m very, very active and that seems to work great, somewhere in that range. Like, three days a week, I will do heavier lifting, so on those days, I may get up to 100 grams. That usually works great most days, unless I am stressed or something like that. It usually works great for me. So, you kind of have to listen to your body. Now, individuals that are sedentary, I typically say, ok, let’s aim for about 0.6- 0.8 grams per kilograms is a good place to start. If you are sedentary, you are really not moving your body that much, and if you want to consume more protein, move. Get out and exercise a little bit, you know? Take walks around your neighborhood, especially uphill, do inclines, things like that and that will really help. Now, individuals with cancer, if it’s a slow growing cancer, I’m ok with still in that range, 0.6-0.8. If they are doing resistance training, then bumping it up more. Because we know that basically protein can stimulate a pathway called “MTOR”, mammalian target of rapamycin, which is associated with cell reproduction. Basically, pretty much everybody with cancer is going to have abnormalities in this genetic pathway and if they are consuming high amounts of protein, they can over promote cell reproduction, which can lead to cancer growth. So, a slow growing cancer, as long as they are living a healthy lifestyle, we will focus on the insulin pathway and shut that down and incorporate intermittent fasting. So, they are not constantly spiking MTOR, by consuming three to four meals a day. But instead, doing like two meals a day, right?

Drew: Yeah.

Dr. Jockers: Now, a fast growing, metastatic cancer or like a stage four, we’re going to drop that down lower and do more long period fasting and extended fasting. Typically I will have them do one or two meals a day and usually somewhere around 0.5 grams per kilogram. So, like if I had a fast growing cancer, again at 72 kilograms of body weight, so that’s roughing 36 grams of protein, split two meals typically. So, roughly 15 or 20 grams per meal. Believe it or not, you could do great on that, for most people. Now, I wouldn’t build muscle on that, ok? If I was doing intense resistance training, I probably wouldn’t recover from my workouts very well either. I don’t recommend that one when someone has a fast growing cancer. I recommend they get out in nature and they are moving their body, just slow walks, not trying to burn calories. We are not trying to do that exercise, instead we are really focusing on stress relief, lots of calmness, deep breathing, and just being in nature. Getting around the healthy electromagnetic frequencies that come from trees and grass and things like that. So, we are still recommending movement, because it helps support the lymphatics and helps support oxidation, but we are not doing resistance training, so they can handle a low protein diet. We will also do more fasting, where typically I am recommending a minimum of a forty day …. I’m sorry, not a forty day, a fourty hour fast every week. So, like if you finish dinner on Saturday, then you would fast, ideally doing a water fast, and sometimes I allow a fat fast, depending on the individual. Where they are doing like, you know, keto mantra green tea, or if their body is able to handle coffee, I’m ok with doing like one bulletproof style coffee or something like that. Or an anti-inflammatory milk with coconut milk and turmeric, like a golden milk, something along those lines. But more or less, we are doing a fast where we are not consuming carbohydrates or protein for forty hours, so from dinner Saturday to like lunch on Monday, and we are doing that every single week. And if we are not seeing changes, like cancer is still growing, then we are going to start doing more extended fasts. And if the person is real motivated, Drew, like if they are real motivated, I will introduce them the topic. I will say, you know what? One of the best things you can do is a 7 day fast.  A seven day water fast. If they are real motivated, it is great and we will jump right into that. If not, then just starting with intermittent fasting, maybe a forty hour fast would be a much better place to start.

Drew: Gotcha. Thank you for all those details. I kind of want to go back a little bit, you mentioned something before about how you did Keto, you said you ate fat to satiety. I think a lot of people get confused because we tell them 70% fat, so it’s like ok, I’ve got to hit my fat goals. Where can I get in some more fat to hit that goal? *laughing* So, when you mentioned fat to satiety, can you explain that?

Dr. Jockers: Exactly. So, I focus on keeping my carbs low and the way I do that is I choose foods that are low in carbs. So, I am choosing non-starchy vegetables. I am choosing high quality pasture raised animal products, particularly fattier cuts of meat, when I have the opportunity. I am regulating protein because I am saying, I am only going to eat the amount of meat that is about the size of my fist or so. I’m looking at it and I am like, ok I know four ounces, or six ounces, whatever it is, I kind of eyeball it at this time. In the beginning, you might want to look at charts or even weigh your food, just to kind of get the sense of it. Then I’m like, ok I know four ounces of chicken is going to be about 28 grams of protein, so here I go. I’ve got 28 grams of protein here, I am going to have this guacamole, which is homemade, which has got avocado, it’s homemade or whatever it is. I know there is like one or two grams of protein in there. I’m kind of looking at it and I’m like, ok, this meal is about 35 grams of protein right here. That’s about all I need here. Then I’ve got my non-starchy vegetables. I don’t really count the carbs in broccoli, sure there are some net carbs, mostly fiber. There are some net carbs but I am like, you know what, I don’t think that broccoli is going to knock me out of ketosis here. So, I’m going to cover that broccoli though with a whole bunch of grass fed butter, herbs, things like that. Whatever kind of fat I want, I’m going to cover it with that. Then if I am still hungry, if I still want more food, I will go for more broccoli with grass fed butter on it. So, I’m going for seconds on that. We love doing cauliflower mashed potatoes, so that’s one of my favorites. There is just tons of butter, cauliflower in the food processor, broken down. It’s so good, a non-starchy vegetable, high in fiber, very low in net carbs. That’s typically how I eat.

Drew: Gotcha. Ok, yeah, thanks for explaining that. I appreciate that. There has been some recent studies that I have seen out there about certain sweeteners that can cause an insulin response, when you first put it in your mouth. For example, monk fruit or erythritol, which are typically known as keto approved sweeteners, right? They won’t knock you out of ketosis, like aspartame or sucrose, which are obviously unhealthier. As far as artificial sweeteners. What do you tell people that are tinkering with certain keto approved sweeteners and where do you fall on that?

Dr. Jockers: That is a really good question, Drew. So basically, number one, I think it’s individualized. I think some people are going to have more of an insulin response than others. You just kind of have to see how your body responds. I know for me, I know I’m in ketosis when I am not thinking about food. *laughing* I can easily fast for long periods of time and I’m able to perform at a really, really high level. I feel really mentally clear. As you get more used to this and you are able to understand what it feels like to be in ketosis, then that is really going to help you. Then you are going to be able to see how you respond to these sweeteners. Now in the beginning, you might just do blood ketone tests, right? You may have some stevia in your tea or in your coffee or something like that, then just see how your body responds. See if your ketones go down and your blood sugar goes up. You’ll know, you’ll know how you respond to it. Now, on the flip side, I think that in general, and if you go to my website you will find tons and tons of desserts, keto style dessert recipes. My wife is big on those. My website, we have tons of them. In fact, like our …. if you go there, you get this free gift, our ten favorite fat burning dessert recipes, right? So, it’s really cool. But, with that said, we are big on using stevia and monk fruit, things like that, to support the sweet taste. I think in general, consuming a little bit of sweets, helps bring more happiness into many people’s lives. You get a little support in your neurotransmitters. I think it’s really healthy for our bodies, if it’s controlled and done in moderation. Obviously if we are dealing with addictions, to constantly need that dopamine hit from sweet foods, then we are out of control, right? So, if we are able to control it and manage it, and doing it from time to time in a really healthy way, that your body responds well to, then I think it’s really good.

Drew: Yeah, I agree with that. How do you …. you have worked with a lot of people. I’ve kind of seen this when people first get into the keto world, they are gung ho, they are really excited and motivated to stick to it and see these benefits that so many people talk about. How do you address people who kind of shift over to like a more extreme mentality of thinking, ok keto food is good and non keto food is bad. Going through that mental mindset of …. it’s almost like a dogmatic approach. It almost becomes their religion. *laughing* Where it’s like these non-keto foods are sinful, they are bad. I can’t have them. Then keto approved foods are good and then they look down on other people who consume those foods, because they know how bad they are. How do you approach that, when people start to become almost like an extremist mentality and it becomes their religion?

Dr. Jockers: Yeah, unfortunately, Drew, you are absolutely right. I think in general, human nature, we love this know it all mask that we put on. I don’t know if you read that Lewis Howes book, “The Mask of Masculinity”, but I’m like, you know that know it all mask? That’s my mask and for most doctors, a lot of people are putting on that mask. We want to feel like we have got certainty in the things that we do in our life. One way we have that certainty is we kind of get dogmatic about our nutrition and we kind of just judge other people for it. But really it’s a mask to hide our own insecurities, that maybe we don’t have it all figured out. They see this new nutrition world where the vegans are plant based and they think ketogenic diet’s are horrible for people and that we are killing people by telling them to go on a ketogenic diet. Then the keto world is saying how bad the vegans or plant based diet is, or whatever it is. I just say, hey, you know what? Find the nutrition plan that works best for you. So, from a scientific perspective, I think really ketosis is amazing. I think everybody should experience it, should work to experience it, just how your body responds. Just get in to true nutritional ketosis and experience that and spend time in it, periods of time in it from time to time. I think the way our ancestors ate, it was more feast or famine, where basically …. and that’s really, Drew, I think you are with me on this, we really want to look at what our ancestors did right. That’s really what created the genetic structure of where we are now. It wasn’t like they necessarily were intentionally in this feast or famine. Although, some cultures practice fasting for specific periods and things like that. But, they would go through periods based on food availability, where they would eat very little, right? And typically very low carb, especially in the winter time. Then times when they would eat a lot more carbs, it’s kind of this feast or famine cycle. There is a lot of benefit in that, because when you are in a tough period of famine, like fasting or really a ketogenic approach is in a sense almost like a fasting mimicking diet. There is a whole book on that, or program on that. But, you get a lot of the benefits of fasting when you are on a ketogenic approach and you are still eating food, because you are suppressing insulin. When you do that, you significantly reduce inflammation, you stimulate more cellular autophagy. So, you get all these great benefits of healing and repair in your body. You also get optimized performance in your brain. You look at a lot of …. for example, the Spartans, the movie 300 was about. These people, they would fast during the day and then they would feast at night. It was kind of this warrior diet approach that they would take. They did that for performance, they felt like they would perform at a higher level, that they would be stronger. That it created strong warriors and resilient individuals and it did. Because fasting stimulates resiliency, stress resiliency in our bodies and there are a lot of benefits to that. Now where feasting can be a benefit is, number one is obviously all of us enjoy it. So just daily life enjoyment, just enjoying your life, feasting is great. You see all these different holidays that all the ancient cultures celebrated. You look through the bible, it’s like there are all these different holidays that were celebrated with feasting. So, feasting has always been a part of our culture, even before that, it was like …. when you killed something, if you didn’t have refrigeration or you had a harvest, you couldn’t keep it good. You didn’t have the same level of refrigeration. You have to ferment things or you would just have to eat as much as you could before it spoiled. So you would feast. Feasting, not only do we get enjoyment from it, but also on top of that, it tells the body, hey we are in a period of time where life is abundant, let’s stimulate more thyroid hormone. Let’s shoot up the thyroid hormone. So, a lot of individuals with under active thyroids, or just poor thyroid hormone conversion and expression at the cell, actually need this for a vesicular ketogenic diet approach. The reason why is because basically famine will reduce the inflammation and inflammation is one of the top things that interferes with the body’s ability to express thyroid hormone at the cellular level. But also, they need periods of time where the body is saying, hey, food is abundant, let’s create more cellular energy, let’s stimulate this thyroid hormone. Let’s get more active free T3 in the cell, so we can start to burn all this extra fuel we have. That’s a really healthy response. I just tell people, hey you know what number one is, I think a cyclical ketogenic diet approach can be really, really healthy for most individuals, ok. Number two is, you know what, let people do what they need to do to enjoy their life, and you live confidently in the approach you want to take. And just live confidently, kind of like with my wife, there is no better way than to influence and persuade people than you just being confident. Owning your walk, owning your way of life. Taking off the know it all mask, being open to the idea that maybe you don’t know it all and that you are curious about what other people do and why they do it. Maybe you can learn from them, even if they are doing things you wouldn’t necessarily agree with. Maybe you can learn about why they are doing that and understand them better. Just the more confident that you walk in your walk and the more humble you are in it, the more you are able to influence the people around you.

Drew: Yeah, I love that. I love that. It’s a great place to end our podcast. But before we do, I have a couple of questions for you before we end and tell people where they can find you. Earlier in the interview, you mentioned something about you changing the water in your shower. You said chlorinating it, right?

Dr. Jockers: Yeah, so when you don’t have a shower filter, you’ve got chlorine vapor that’s coming out of the shower, especially when it is hot. And in general, they chlorinate water to sterilize it because they don’t want bacterial infections and different things like that to get spread through the water system. So, all water in cities is going to be chlorinated. Our job is to actually get the chlorine out, because chlorine is a sterilizing agent and is going to damage our skin. If we are breathing it in, it is very toxic to our body. It increases our risk of all different types of cancers. If we are drinking it, we are actually sterilizing our gut and damaging our gut microbiome.

Drew: That’s interesting. Well, the reason I asked that is what other hacks do you implement in your life, that are outside of this whole Keto conversation that we have had, that you are excited about, or that you tell people about?

Dr. Jockers: Well, you know in the morning, I am a huge fan of gratitude walks. So, I will take my dog out around our neighborhood and I’m just like breathing deep and loving my life. Finding all the different things in my life that I love, and just focusing on that. I think that is something every single person should do, is do something along those lines. Obviously if it is raining out or something like that, I may not do that. I may just spend time possibly reading my bible or reading some sort of inspirational message. Something along those lines, just inspire yourself every day. It should be something you do early in the day. I also really focus on a lot of hydration early in the day. I want to open up all the drainage pathways in my body. So Drew, I actually drink close to, if not more than, a gallon of water a day before I eat any food. So, I do that and I usually wake up between 5:30 and 7:00 a.m. or so. I am an early riser, a natural early riser. I just start hydrating. I hydrate my body. I tell people to start your day with hydration because you’re breathing out water vapor at night. So you are actually dehydrating yourself at night. You don’t know it, and then you wake up in the morning, and especially if you are hungry early in the day, like I used to be years ago, it was like I had to eat within the first half hour. Once I started learning how to hydrate my body well, it totally went away. I just hydrate my body, flush things out. You have got to make sure you are moving your bowels. You need to make sure your pee …. I always tell people, my patients, you have got to pee your way to good health! *laughing* My patients are always like, I feel so much better on this plan, but Dr. Jockers, I am in the bathroom like every hour! I’m like, great! *laughing* You have to pee your way to good health and you have to get these toxins out of your system. You have got to move the metabolic waste through your body and keep these drainage pathways open. I am also a fan of …. I have an infrared sauna in my house. I’m blessed to be able to have that. So, I do use that regularly. I’m also a huge fan of …. I always end my showers with cold water. Just kind of pump my muscles for like 60 seconds. I just get such a high, I don’t know if you do that, but it’s like, oh my gosh! I’m like just ready to take on the world after that! *laughing*

Drew: *laughing* Awesome.

Dr. Jockers: I wake my wife up, typically at 7:30. I wake her up and I just kiss her. So, if you have a partner, just making him or her feel special every day. I want her to start her day just feeling like she is the most attractive, incredible woman. So, I wake her up and I’m kissing her, telling her how much I love her. Things like that, which she typically is not a morning person. *laughing* So, this really helps her be more …. obviously in a much better mood in the mornings. *laughing* She loves it and it just goes into how great of a relationship we have. I always try to be really intentional with her about that in the morning. We pray together as a family, in fact, we incorporate our boys in that. We always pray together as a family and I would say those are definitely key things. And then just being around good people that share your values, I think is extremely important. Share your values in life and being an encouraging force in their life. Looking for ways to encourage the people around you, support them, pray for them, be there for them. I think that’s powerful for our minds and our emotions.

Drew: Love that. That is awesome. Thank you so much for that. Really quick, tell us about the Keto Edge Summit and how people can find out about that.

Dr. Jockers: The Keto Edge Summit, you know Drew, teaching the ketogenic diet and lifestyle, just like you do, I came across so many different individuals that were misinformed on what keto does. I was like, I have got to get a really large message out to people and I want to bring the best keto experts and keto instructors, like yourself, into this. I actually traveled around the country and interviewed …. about half the interviews are live with my video team, the other half are via zoom, like we did, because you are in Utah and I am in Atlanta. So, we were able to connect via zoom. But basically, I just wanted to interview all the top experts and really get to the nitty gritty on the science of ketosis, how to apply it. What different hacks are going to help support somebody as they are trying to get keto adapted. But also, different mental and emotional issues, I know like you and I, we dove deep on that. Your interview was so good, which actually goes live Monday May 7th, so tune into that. We really dove in deep. I had so much …. greater respect and appreciation for what you do in your keto community, because you really do a great job of supporting people no matter where they are at in their journey. That’s really the goal, is to help open people’s eyes and say, hey, you know what? Nutritional ketosis is a very powerful healing modality. People are getting incredible results all around the world using this. Some of the top health experts in the world are using and promoting this. This is not something we need to be afraid of. This is something that can be a great tool in your tool belt to help you produce better, to have better mental clarity, to lose weight, if that is your goal. To reverse chronic disease if your dealing with something, to just give people hope. We are really excited, we are launching this Monday May 7th. It’s all for free, you can listen to these interviews for free. If you want to own it, obviously you can purchase it for a very low price. Less than a hundred dollars. You can purchase all 33 of these interviews and we have tons of bonuses. Really excited to get this out to the world.

Drew: Yeah, awesome. We will put a link to that in the show notes. Thanks Dr. Jockers for coming on. I really appreciate everything you do for so many people. You’ve blessed and enhanced so many people’s lives. I appreciate you coming on and sharing your knowledge. Where can people get a hold of you on social media and your websites, all that?

Dr. Jockers: Well, absolutely. Thank you so much, Drew. I really appreciate all the great work you are doing in your community and with this podcast. It’s an honor to be on. If you want to reach me, you can find me at DrJockers.com and of course, I’m on YouTube, I’m on Facebook and all the different social media channels as well.

Drew: Awesome. Well, thanks again, Dr. Jockers. We will be in touch and we will talk to you soon, ok?

Dr. Jockers: Sounds great Drew. Thank you.

Drew: Have a good one.

Dr. Jockers: You too.


Hey everyone. Thank you so much for listening to this episode on the Fit2Fat2Fit Experience Podcast. I really, really appreciate all the support you have shown me throughout all the years. If you love the Podcast, then please go subscribe to the Podcast on ITunes. And also, if you love the Podcast, please leave us a review. It definitely helps out with rankings, which means more people listening to this Podcast when they see it. And feel free to reach out to me on social media @Fit2Fat2Fit or at Fit2Fat2Fit.com with suggestions, comments or concerns. Anything you guys think I could do to make this Podcast better for you. I definitely want to bring the highest quality content to you, the most value, because I know you are investing 30-50 minutes per day, when you listen to the Podcast. So, I really appreciate all the support and like I said, go follow me @Fit2Fat2Fit on social media, if you want to reach out to me with any comments, questions or concerns. Thank you guys so much and we will see you guys back here next week on the Fit2Fat2Fit Experience Podcast.