Episode 138 – Rachel Gregory
What’s up everyone? Drew Manning here from Fit2Fat2Fit and your listening to the Fit2Fat2Fit Experience Podcast. On today’s episode 138, I interview Rachel Gregory. She’s known as “KillinItKeto” on social media. She has a really popular Instagram account. We’re going to talk about the Ketogenic diet today, but she has a really cool story. For her Masters, she did a thesis on the Ketogenic diet combined with CrossFit. She did the first ever human clinical trial that’s been done combing Keto with CrossFit. So, you will want to stay tuned to hear what this clinical trial was about, what the outcome was and all the ins and outs of the structure of it and how it might apply to you and your lifestyle. Whether you choose to do Keto or not, this is very interesting information. We also get into the Ketogenic diet and the way that she’s found it works best for her. Because, if you know anything about the Keto diet, you know it’s very bioindividual. We talk about the latest things that have been working for her recently.
Drew: Alright, Rachel Gregory, welcome to the Podcast. How are you doing?
Rachel: I’m great. How are you?
Drew: I am doing fantastic. It’s an honor to have you on. I know we have connected on Social Media, but we have never actually spoken in person. You just reminded me of that. *chuckles*
Rachel: *chuckles* Yeah.
Drew: Well, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. I like your work. I like what you do. And I am excited to have you come talk to my audience about that. First of all, let’s have you just introduce yourself a little bit. Talk about how you got in to the whole Keto world. What your background is and kind of what your passions were growing up that led you down the path you are on today.
Rachel: Ok, sure. I am originally from New York. I grew up in Manhattan. I grew up playing sports my whole life. I started getting more into nutrition and I ended up going to the University of Miami for Undergrad. I studied athletic training and sports medicine there. I got into nutrition, because we started taking some nutrition classes when I was a junior in college. I really started to get more interested in the nutrition side of things, rather than the sports medicine side. I still enjoyed the sports medicine side, but I just found myself looking more into the nutrition side of things and all that. I decided to pursue that a little bit more. I went on to grad school and worked as an athletic trainer, while getting my masters in nutrition and exercise physiology. I went to James Madison University in Virginia. That’s kind of where I found Keto. We had to do a Masters thesis and a lot of my classmates were doing online surveys and different things like that. I really just wanted to do something that was kind of out of the box and different. So, I decided to do my Masters thesis looking at the Ketogenic diet and non-elite CrossFit athletes.
Drew: Yeah, and I want to talk about that at some point. But before we do, a couple of questions about your journey. What were you learning about in nutrition that kind of intrigued you to go down that path at the University of Miami? What about it was so intriguing to you?
Rachel: I also participated in Triathlons at University of Miami. I know you do them.
Drew: I just finished one. *laughing*
Rachel: I know, I saw that. *laughing* That’s cool. I feel like we have a lot of similarities with CrossFit and Triathlons and stuff. So, I started into Triathlons, like my freshman year of college. I played basketball and softball in high school, pretty competitively. I got to college and I was just like, I need something like competitive to do. I wasn’t on any varsity teams or anything. They had a club team for Triathlon and I was like, ‘Ok what the heck? I’ll just try it.’ So, I got into that, and obviously nutrition is important for Triathlons. We would learn from the people I was training with about the carb ups and all that stuff. Once I got into nutrition classes, I was still learning the same things with performance and carbing up before the race and all that stuff. I was always just curious about it. When I went to grad school and discovered Keto, it was the complete opposite of everything we learned. Even in grad school, I know you asked what I learned in undergrad. Undergrad was pretty much the basics. The USDA guidelines, metabolism and stuff like that and then as you got into grad school, it was just digging a little bit deeper into that. It was all based on your typical nutrition textbook that was written years ago. So, when I got into Keto, it was a complete opposite. Luckily I had an advisor who was a previous bodybuilder so he had a little bit of experience doing Keto towards the end of his bodybuilding, cuts and stuff like that, so he had a little bit of experience there. But other than that, it was I guess 3 years ago now, so it wasn’t really mainstream like it is now.
Drew: Yeah, exactly. So, what were you eating before as an athlete? Did you have any guidance as far as that goes? Were you eating more of a high protein, high carb, low fat diet? And did that work for you at the time? Did you feel like it was a good lifestyle for you at that age?
Rachel: I was always into like eating whole foods. I guess I was more a ‘Paleo’ish’ style eating in college. We would always have the carb up pasta nights before the big races. Wherever we went, it was like, ‘Ok, let’s go get 5 cups of pasta and all that stuff.’ Looking back on it now, just thinking about race day and the morning and you have those nerves and all that stuff. But then I would always …. I would never have like a race day where I woke up and was not bloated. I always remember being somewhat bloated and just not you know …. there was obviously some races that were like, ‘Alright I’m ready to go.’ But the majority of them, I can think back and whether it was the nerves or those carb ups, I don’t know. I feel like if I would have discovered Keto back then when, I was competing in Triathlons, I probably would have had a lot better races.
Drew: So, tell me about your first experience getting into Keto. How did you do it? How did you feel on it? Did you do some testing with it or did you just kind of dive right in to it? Did you do some research first or what was your experience once you did do Keto?
Rachel: When I first discovered it, I was actually looking into doing a nutrition intervention in the CrossFit gym I was a part of. At first I kind of wanted to do a Paleo type of intervention. It was kind of just like take a nutrition intervention and put it in that exercise population. That’s what the idea was and see if they could lose body fat and increase performance. So when I came across Keto, I hadn’t really heard of it before and I actually ended up reading Jimmy Moore’s book, “Keto Clarity”. I read it in like a day and was just completely you know …. everything was just so turned around! *laughing* I was like, ‘Alright, this was interesting!’ So, we have to do a whole literature view and dive into all the research that was there pertaining to Keto and CrossFit. There wasn’t much on CrossFit. Maybe like two papers on everything, but there was a lot on Keto with weight loss and obviously epilepsy and stuff like that. So, I started diving into that. Just from what I was learning those first few weeks, I just dove into it and reduced my carbs a lot. But I did it just like a lot of people do, I probably did it completely wrong, where I just reduced the carbs a lot. Since I was used to fearing fat, I didn’t up my fats and I felt like complete crap, of course, in the beginning. Especially while I was still trying to do hard CrossFit workouts, it was kind of a disaster. As I progressed, and as the weeks went on, I tried different things and introduced more fat and as I did that, it was a little bit better. As I got my electrolytes in balance, it started to get better over a few months period. As I got to this study, when it was supposed to be done, I was able to take what I learned from myself and explain it to the participants and make sure they were upping their electrolytes and not being too afraid of fat in the beginning.
Drew: Yeah. So, let’s talk about this for your thesis. You did the first ever clinical trial on Keto and CrossFit athletes, that’s correct, right?
Drew: So, how did you structure that to make sure it was in line with what you wanted it to be and obviously not biased, is that right? Some people go into a study wanting a certain outcome and so they will set it up in a certain way so it looks like it got the outcome. How did you go about setting this up? Did you talk to other people who had performed studies? Let’s talk about how exactly you set it up. All you have said so far is Keto and non-elite CrossFit athletes, what does that mean?
Rachel: Yeah, for sure. I had never obviously done a study before so I had my …. Oh wow …. sorry …. I’m having a brain fart. *laughing* I had my advisor, who really helped me set up the study. We had classes on how to set up studies and read studies and do them the right way. Like, we had full on classes on research development and stuff like that. So, that’s where I learned the proper way to set up a study. It was a controlled randomized study. Basically, what we wanted to see, was if the people who were in the Ketogenic group could lose a certain amount of body fat, while still maintaining their lean body mass. So, that was kind of going into the study, that was the hypothesis. The Keto group could lose significant amount of body fat, while still maintaining their lean body mass. While the control group, who would either increase their lean body mass or increase their performance, but not lose body fat. How I set it up was, I wanted to find an exercise population. I was working out in a CrossFit gym. I kind of went away from Triathlons when I went to grad school and I joined a CrossFit gym, just for fun and to get a good workout. I really started to enjoy it. I went into the gym and said, ‘Hey, would anybody be interested in participating in a nutrition guided study?’ I got a lot of interest in it and so we had a total of 30 participants. Basically what we did is, we divided them into two groups randomly, using a computerized system. One group was the Keto group, and one group was a normal control group, who just followed the normal standard American diet. We also made sure that they were not following any other particular diet in that time or hadn’t followed a particular diet for a month before that. When I say non-elite, I mean just kind of your average CrossFit person. Not the people going to the CrossFit games. I’m sure you understand what going into a CrossFit gym …. although people don’t realize that if you haven’t done CrossFit before. You don’t realize most of the gyms around the country are kind of just like your average person looking to get a good workout in. Or looking to lose a little bit of weight, get healthy and stuff like that. So, that’s what I mean by non-elite. I’m talking about ones who aren’t going to the CrossFit games and the regionals and stuff like that.
Drew: So, how did you control what they ate? What were the parameters, as far as that goes, for both groups?
Rachel: Yeah, so for the control group, we basically just said, eat what your eating, don’t change anything. And then for the Keto group, I kind of sat them down and said, ‘Ok here are the guidelines.’ The main guidelines that I gave them, I tried to keep it as simple as possible and make it as much of a real life situation as possible. We didn’t have them locked in the lab for six weeks, watching everything they were doing. That’s not what reality is. For the average person, they are not in a laboratory doing that. I wanted to be as controlled as possible, but at the same time, as realistic as possible. The main guidelines were just to have them stay under 50 grams of total carbs per day. I didn’t have them …. I didn’t say they needed to track macros. I mean obviously track your carbs as much as possible. A lot of people ended up doing that. But the main thing was keep your carbs under 50 grams total per day. Then protein and fat was moderate protein and get a little bit of extra fat in. The way we monitored that is, we had them do every two weeks in the six week study, we had them do a three day food log. So, a complete assessment of what they are eating and drinking. We assessed that as we were going. The main parameter, and this was the reason I really wanted to do this study, is because we could measure their ketones. With any other type of diet, the only parameters you can measure are like the scale and obviously body measurements, fat measurements and stuff like that. But to be able to measure something like ketones, over like every single day and see if someone is actually adhering to this diet, I thought was pretty cool. We didn’t have the funding to do blood measurements, so we had to do the urine ketones. But we had a machine where instead of actually looking at the color of it, we had a machine that actually gave us a number. Like once you inserted the strip, it gave you a number of ketones. We measured their ketones every Friday, at the end of the week. We measured the control groups urine ketones and the diet group, both of them. Because we wanted to make sure that the control group wasn’t for some reason trying to follow the Keto diet. We wanted to make sure they weren’t just trying to do that and we wanted to see that the Keto group could or was maintaining their ketones. Obviously, we know in the beginning, you start to produce a lot of ketones in your urine and your wasting them. As time goes on, your urine ketones are not accurate. But because this was a six week study, in the beginning of the six weeks, it was showing up. That’s kind of how we monitored that.
Drew: Ok, so you didn’t notice it taper off for the six weeks, there was still some there?
Rachel: Yeah, some of the numbers, they started to go down. Like in the beginning, the numbers were lower and then they would kind of get higher and on average, start to trickle down a little bit. I have a chart in my study of the ketone levels there. But, yeah, that was just one of the things we measured and I would have loved to measure blood obviously, but we didn’t have the funding. The strips were so expensive. I mean now we have the Keto Mo-Jo, so that’s a little bit more affordable.
Drew: Yeah, that would have been interesting to see what their blood ketone levels were, especially at 50 grams of carbs, because most people think that’s really high for carbohydrate intake. Can you achieve ketosis over the years? What I have learned is Keto is so bio-individual, and I know we try to put people in a box and say, ‘Ok, 70% fat, 25% protein and 5% carbs and 30 grams or less of carbohydrates. If you go over that, your out of ketosis or if you eat this ingredient, your out of ketosis. It’s so bio-individual, that’s what I’ve learned. It’s not a one size fits all approach. Obviously, your giving them certain parameters, some people might say 50 grams is too much. Obviously you didn’t measure blood ketones, but you could tell that the body was producing ketones through the urine, right?
Rachel: Right, exactly. I completely agree. It’s so variable for every person. I think just starting out at that …. like none of these people had ever tried it before. They had never been on a super low carb diet, so that’s why we kind of had 50 grams total as the set parameter for everyone.
Drew: And was the control group, were they tracking calories at all? How were you measuring? Were they eating as much as they wanted to or do you think they were trying to cut down on calories as well? Obviously, that would have played a factor, right? Well, first let’s talk about the outcome and then we’ll talk about certain factors like calories and things like that. There’s some controversy about calories in and calories out, right.
Rachel: Mm-hmm, yeah for sure. So the main outcome was the Keto group was able to lose a significant amount of body fat and fat mass, after the six week period. This is on average, not every single person lost this amount. It was the average of the group and like I said, there were 15 people in the control group and 15 people in the Keto group, or 16 and 15, somewhere around that. So, the Keto group lost on average about 7 1/2 pounds, I think it was. Then body fat reduced by like 2 1/2% in just 6 weeks. There was no significant difference between lean body mass between the two groups. The control group, they didn’t have any significant loss in body fat or weight, it kind of just stayed the same. And we measured this by using a Dexa Scan, so we did Dexa Scan before and after.
Drew: Ok, I was going to ask you about that.
Rachel: Yeah and also, both groups they had to …. the parameters for exercise were they had to go to CrossFit and take classes on average four times a week. So, that was the exercise parameters and the outcome for that were both groups were able to increase their performance. We tested using that …. exercise for time. As many rounds as they could complete in a certain amount of time. If they were able to complete it …. I mean it’s not an …. I’m sorry! Today is just a brain fart day. *laughing* I don’t know what’s going on?!
Drew: *laughing* Maybe you better check your ketone levels. * laughing * See if your in ketosis.
Rachel: *laughing* Yeah! I think my brain just is on overload. Yeah, anyway …. Their performance, at the end of the six weeks, both groups were able to perform and increase their performance by decreasing their time to complete the task.
Drew: Was it Fran or was it a CrossFit girl workout? Do you know what I’m saying?
Rachel: It was just a baseline …. I actually just asked the CrossFit gym owners for a typical baseline CrossFit workout and that was what we ….
Drew: Sure, it was a timed workout?
Rachel: Yeah, that’s just what we based it off of and we kept it the same. So, like there were some pull ups in there and so, if some people used a band to start with, some people used a band to do the pull ups, we made sure we used the same exact band after six weeks.
Rachel: So, it wasn’t like that was changing. It was all the same parameters, from the pretesting to the post testing.
Drew: Ok. So, both groups performed better, after the six weeks, right?
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Drew: Did you measure that? Was it like the same change or was there any significant difference?
Rachel: There was no significant difference between the performance changes.
Drew: Ok. Which is pretty cool. So, as far as performance goes, there wasn’t a huge difference for the Keto group. Some people think if you go Keto, you’re going to see a difference performance, which maybe some people who aren’t doing it right, might see that. So, that’s pretty cool.
Rachel: Yeah, and the first few weeks, like the first week, definitely. And I warned all the people in the Keto group about that, that they will probably most likely have a dip in their performance the first week or two. And obviously energy levels and stuff like that. Definitely people noticed that and that’s where I just encouraged the electrolytes and to make sure you are fueling enough.
Drew: Ok, gotcha. But the Keto group, obviously lost more body fat percentage.
Rachel: Yeah, and then they were able to maintain their muscle mass, which was …. that was what we wanted to see. Because a lot of these people, that’s what they want. The outcome is you want to lose body fat and maintain your muscle, that is what everyone wants. Or obviously, improve muscle or increase muscle.
Drew: So, since this study, do you still work with CrossFit athletes? You work with doctors now, teaching their patients about Keto? So, since this has happened, where have you gone with what you do for your career, as far as educating people about the Ketogenic diet and it’s benefits?
Rachel: After grad school, I ended up moving back to Florida and I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do. I was kind of …. I didn’t want to be an athletic trainer anymore. I still enjoyed that, but I wanted to do something with nutrition. So, I became a nutrition scientist for a supplement company. Kind of just formulating supplements and stuff like that and it wasn’t really exactly what I wanted to be doing. I found myself still researching Keto and getting more into that. I was working with some people on the side and teaching them about it. I ended up moving to San Diego, back in October, to pursue Keto full time. I ended up creating a website, my own website and my own business really, working with all different types of clients online. I do something called the “21 day Keto Challenge”. It’s basically like a 21 day course that’s offered online and I work individually with people who sign up for that. I also have clients I work with from some of the doctors I’ve met up here in San Diego. That’s what I’ve been doing. I also am actually writing a book. That’s what I’ve been doing the past 2 months, really focusing my time on this book. And just working with some clients online and in person.
Drew: Ok. And when is your book launch and what it’s about?
Rachel: It’s a take on my 21 day Challenge. The first half of the book is geared towards Keto with weight loss and then the second half of the book is over 100 recipes, just Keto recipes. That’s really crazy. I didn’t realize how difficult it was to write recipes and all that stuff and test them. It’s very time consuming. So, that’s a little bit stressful right now, but it’s fun.
Drew: I know, I’m writing a book as well. I know how it is. *laughing*
Rachel: Oh really, so you are in the same boat! So, it’s supposed to launch in the middle to end of summer. It a really fast turn around.
Drew: Well, that’s cool. Let’s talk a little about Keto and what you’ve learned over the years. Maybe how you did Keto a couple of years ago, verses how you do Keto now. Has it evolved for you? How have you upgraded and tweaked how you do Keto throughout the years? Because I know for me, the way I did Keto three years ago, is different than how I do Keto now. I feel more optimal where I am at now. I had to tweak it a little bit and learn from mistakes sometimes. How has that changed for you?
Rachel: Yeah. The first thing I can think of is protein. That’s a huge controversy these days. I was actually thinking about this the other day. When I did my study, the main focus was under 50 grams of carbs and protein was, it was kind of just like, eat protein, eat fat to fill you up. Obviously we encouraged moderate protein and higher fat, but it wasn’t like, ‘Alright, keep your protein at this exact number.’ There were still awesome results and that’s what I was doing three years ago. As the science evolved, I started to lower protein and all of that. Now, I find myself back to saying stop fearing protein. You know, as we all …. In the past year or so, that’s kind of how I have evolved. If it was three years ago, it was that it’s mainly the carbs and protein. But, we shouldn’t fear it too much. So, that’s what I’ve started implementing more with my clients. Obviously, there are some of those people who are severely metabolically damaged and they need a little bit less protein. If their goal is truly to get into ketosis, and like you said, it’s all individual. It just depends on what your goal is. Is your goal therapeutic ketosis, is it performance? There are so many different factors that play into it.
Drew: Ok, gotcha. So, do you track your macros anymore or no?
Rachel: I, generally I don’t, but when I moved to California, I guess it was 8 months ago? October? Anyway, I was kind of just like, moved to a new place, wasn’t really doing …. I was still following Keto, like obviously, low carb and all that stuff. But I wasn’t tracking all that much and then when January hit. I was like everybody else, I was like, ‘Alright, I’m going to do a New Years Resolution.’ So, I started tracking and just doing my own kind of experiments and stuff like that. When I experiment, I track macros. But when I’m just doing everyday stuff, like right now I’m trying to track, but I’m also stressed out with this book. So, I’m trying to eliminate as many stressors as possible. But, I guess I am just back and forth with that.
Drew: Yeah, I know how that is. I don’t track anymore either. I get kind of lazy and I just kind of intuitively eat, which obviously for people getting started, they need that guidance to know, ok, this is how many calories I’m eating. This is my macro nutrient ratio and it’s to kind of get an idea of where you are at. Even like blood testing, I really don’t test as much anymore, as much as I used to. Where I was experimenting and seeing what worked and I was testing every little thing to see if it knocked me out of ketosis. Now, I’m just like, I have so much going on. Life is too short to be tracking everything for the rest of your life. But I do recommend it for people in the beginning. So, similar to you, I’ve kind of messed around with my carbs and protein to find out what my threshold is. Before I was like 20-30 grams of carbs or less, every single day. And then, having a ton of fat, probably 80 gram of protein a day. Roughly because, I just felt full, right? I felt fine, my performance was fine in the gym. But recently, I’ve kind of upped my carbs to closer to 50-70 grams and my protein a little bit higher and dropped my fat slightly. Currently at where I am at now, I feel really good. I feel optimal, my body fat is a good percentage. My performance in the Triathlon was better than it was last year. I’m just always kind of tweaking things. I just did my blood work and it’s the best it’s ever been. So, obviously, for me, when I look at my blood work, that’s kind of the gage of is this what I’m doing currently, is that protocol optimal for me? It’s kind of good to see what’s working for other people as well. Because people listening to this, think ‘Oh Drew, you’re eating way too many carbs. You are not in ketosis or you’re not receiving the benefits. Or you are eating too much protein, you’re not eating enough fat.’ We get so wrapped up in the numbers, when in reality we have to remember that each person is different and some people, depending on where they are at in their life, it might look different than what you’re doing and it might be optimal for them. It sounds like you are kind of experimenting with what you’re doing too.
Rachel: Yeah, exactly. I think it’s exactly what you said. The goal is to kind of be able to intuitively eat and feel full and feel satisfied. It also depends on what your goals are. If your goal is to lose a certain amount of body fat or get down to a certain body fat percentage, or if your goal is to increase for performance, or it’s for the mental benefits, everybody is different. Everybody has different goals and it’s not one size fits all, at all. That’s what I promote for my 21 day Challenge, is that if you’re really just starting out, there is a certain set of guidelines to follow and things that you can do right. My 21 day Challenge is every day there is an email with a different topic related to Keto. I bring things up, because I know that in the past when I tried to explain it to people, it was so overwhelming that they were just getting mental fatigue and quitting after 5 days. There is so much conflicting information, they just didn’t understand it. So, that’s why I designed it to break it up and focus on the concrete things like electrolytes and fat and different things like that. But once you get passed that introductory period, it all becomes individualized and all just based on what your goals are.
Drew: To close, what would you give someone who is just getting started with Keto, like the top 3-5 things they need to do to be successful, so they don’t get burnt out over a few days or become overwhelmed? What are the top 3-5 things you recommend people to do, so they have a good experience with it?
Rachel: Ok. Definitely electrolytes. They say make sure you are replacing those for sure. I think that if your goal is fat loss, that obviously, if we are eating a ton of fat and a ton of calories, it’s got to go somewhere. It’s not calories in, calories out, but it has to go somewhere. Like if you’re someone who’s eating 3000-4000 calories and you are not one of those elite people who can do that, it’s going to go somewhere. I would say in the beginning when you start out, don’t try to go into a huge caloric deficit, but if your goal is fat loss, you will kind of taper off into a little bit lower calories. That’s kind of why Keto is so great, because you have that appetite suppressant. Long winded is, don’t go into a huge deficit right away, allow your body to adapt first, then go from there. What else? Don’t stress out too much. A lot of people get really stressed about the numbers, and that is like a huge thing. Don’t stress out about your ketone levels and testing everyday, especially if your testing your blood. A lot of people say, don’t chase ketones. I believe in that for sure. Higher ketone levels are …. we don’t even know if they are specifically correlated to fat loss or weight loss. I guess those would be the main things. That was three, right? *chuckles*
Drew: Yeah, that will work. And then, I lied. This is the last question. Do you use exogenous ketones and if so, how do you implement them into your Keto lifestyle?
Rachel: Yeah, I tried them a little bit. I don’t really use exogenous ketones. I tried the salt a little bit, as a preworkout or sometimes if I’m trying to do a fasting day. But for me personally, I really stick to MCT’s and whole foods, that’s really what I promote. But I do think they can have a place with performance and therapeutic and all that. But on a personal level, I don’t really use them on a daily basis.
Drew: Ok, cool. Where can people find you online, websites, social media and all that stuff.
Rachel: My social media is “killinitketo’, and that’s on Facebook and Instagram. And then my website is ‘Killinitketo.com’.
Drew: Gotcha. And it’s no ‘g’? “K-I-L-L-I-N”
Rachel: Yes. *chuckles*
Drew: Ok, so we will put all of that in the show notes. Really quick, what’s your favorite Keto treat or your favorite Keto dessert?
Rachel: Favorite Keto dessert? Ummm …. I like all the fatbombs. I just make different fatbombs. I guess cookie dough is one of my go-to’s.
Drew: Gotcha, cookie dough. *laughing* Alright, well Rachel. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate you sharing all this information with my audience. Very beneficial for people to hear, especially the people doing CrossFit. They think they need carbohydrates, or you need to run on carbohydrates to be successful at it. But your study was very unique and like I was saying before, the first ever clinical trial done on CrossFit and Keto. I think maybe there is a happy balance between those two. So, thank you for doing it. I’ve actually referenced it a couple of times talking to other CrossFit athletes about it.
Rachel: Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me.
Drew: Your welcome and we’ll talk to you soon.
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